It’s no secret that we will all have to change how we move and drive in order to slow the pace of climate change. However, as companies race to build technology and raise investments on both electric and self-driving cars, one factor still stands in the way of significant progress: public perception of these technologies. Listen in as Mark interviews Devin Gladden on his research on how we as a country feel about automated and electric vehicles, and what you personally can do to move these markets forward.
Guest: Devin C. Gladden is an energy, technology, and transportation policy professional who has worked on a variety of climate change and international issues. Currently in his role at AAA National as a manager for federal energy and technology policy, he covers a range of vehicle related issues — including gas prices, deployment of electric vehicles, and safety policy for self-driving cars. Prior to his current role, Devin served as a special advisor for the Office of Electricity and Energy Reliability at the U.S. Department of Energy during the Obama Administration. He has also worked at NASA, the World Bank, and the State of Delaware. He holds a Masters in Environmental Policy and Regulation from the London School of Economics and Political Science.
Related Readings:
Stephens, T. S., J. Gonder, Y. Chen, Z. Lin, C. Liu, and D. Gohlke. Estimated Bounds and Important Factors for Fuel Use and Consumer Costs of Connected and Automated Vehicles. National Renewable Energy Laboratory, November 2016. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy17osti/67216.pdf.
Fleming, Kelly, and Mark Singer. “Energy Implications of Current Travel and the Adoption of Automated Vehicles.” Energy Implications of Current Travel and the Adoption of Automated Vehicles . National Renewable Energy Laboratory, April 2019. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/72675.pdf.
Moniot, M., Ge, Y., Reinicke, N., and Schroeder, A., "Understanding the Charging Flexibility of Shared Automated Electric Vehicle Fleets," SAE Technical Paper 2020-01-0941, 2020, https://doi.org/10.4271/2020-01-0941.
Credits
Produced by Mark Lerner
Music by Zach Pfeifer
Artwork by Zihao Wang
Mark Lerner 0:03
Welcome to Fellow Fellow, a new podcast from Harvard Kennedy School's Technology and Public Purpose project. I'm your host, Mark Lerner, and I'm a fellow at the TAPP project. In this podcast, I interview my Fellow Fellows about their research and perspectives on some of the most interesting challenges at the intersection of technology and society.
Welcome to another episode of Fellow Fellow. Happy to be here with a fellow of mine, Devin Gladden. Devin is, of course, a fellow fellow at the Technology and Public Purpose project. He's also an energy technology and transportation policy professional who has worked on a variety of climate change and international issues. Currently in his role at the AAA National as a manager for Federal Energy and Technology Policy, he covers a range of vehicle related issues, including gas prices, deployment of electric vehicles, and safety policy for self driving cars. Prior to his current role, Devin served as a special advisor for the Office of Electricity and Energy Reliability at the Department of Energy during the Obama administration. He's also worked at NASA, the World Bank, and the state of Delaware, and he holds a Master's in Environmental Policy and Regulation from the London School of Economics and Political Science. Devin, it's great to be able to chat with you today.
Devin Gladden 1:33
Thanks, Mark, it's great to chat with you too.
Mark Lerner 1:35
I'd love to jump right into talking about your research and your project here. I mean, your, your history certainly aligns you very well with all the things you're researching here on automated vehicles. But could you maybe give us an introduction to your research here the TAPP project?
Devin Gladden 1:53
Absolutely, Mark. So before I started at AAA, in 2017, I didn't know a whole lot about automated vehicles. For me, it was a really great beginning, because at that time, you saw the industry doing a lot of research, a lot of collaboration that we still could see. And that's continuing on today. And so really, for me, bringing in the insight I had gained from my previous energy and technology and climate change experience was a great lens to add to the understanding, and widening understanding, of how autonomous vehicles might be deployed in society. And so for my research, I've always been really fascinated by how public opinion will shape perception of the use cases for these vehicles and ultimately, help consumers determine whether or not it's a right fit for them. And for me, that fits into a wider notion of where we see mobility moving, not only in this country, but across the globe, where you see a variety of companies, of state and city and local departments, all providing transportation services and understanding that there are more than one - more than two ways - for people to get to their destination. And so being able to offer a variety of choices, whether it's an autonomous vehicle one day in the future, or it's biking, or it's a traditional car, or, you know, you're using a ride hailing service to call a vehicle for you. I think we're starting to see more of those trends develop. And in the future, we'll see more of those options available for consumers.
Mark Lerner 3:49
Gotcha. And I know you mentioned this a little bit, but how did you get personally to the point of wanting to look into automated vehicles, self driving cars and the automotive industry as a whole?
Devin Gladden 4:03
Well for me, because I've always been really interested in climate change and understanding the different opportunities to mitigate and adapt. For me, the transportation sector has always been an important case study because it is the largest emitting sector, not only in the country, but across the globe. And then when you look at the role of light duty vehicles in the transportation sector and its emissions, they contribute a heavy and large chunk. And so I'm very much interested in how driving habits and behaviors may change if we introduce more and more robo-cars that ultimately would add to the road users, and they will have a contribution as well to the transportation emissions profile of this country. And so, for me, understanding, you know, as new modes of transportation come online, how are the technologies being managed, so that we do see the projected, you know, not only safety benefits, but hopefully we will also see emissions reductions from the use of greater electric vehicles as AV's, but they don't necessarily have to be electric. And so that's another reason why folks who are interested in autonomous vehicles are understanding what their emissions profile will look like, particularly as adoption patterns evolve over time.
Mark Lerner 5:37
Mm hmm. And is there anything that you can say about that now? About automated vehicles versus electric vehicles? And how if these things were to start coming into play more and more in our modes of transportation, how would that affect emissions? How would that affect pollution or any other measurements that we use to track these sorts of things?
Devin Gladden 5:58
Well, it will largely depend on how people use the vehicles. If they are used very frequently, and they are gas powered, then you could see an increase in emissions. And that's also to say that even if they are electric, and all electricity is not clean, and, you know, just depends on the time of day and the renewable portfolio standard for your state. So in some ways, you know, there are many factors that we would need to consider. But, you know, I would liken it to any analysis that an ordinary car driver would do to understand their emissions profile. That would be the same for someone who uses autonomous vehicles.
Mark Lerner 6:42
I see. Okay. And so maybe it would be helpful at this point, if you could help me understand, or maybe paint a picture of where are we right now with regards to deployment of automated vehicles and electric vehicles? You know, I myself, I used to live in Silicon Valley where I would see them driving around very frequently, as, as it being a testbed for a lot of these sorts of things. But, you know, that's been going on for years now. And yet, we still don't really have anything that's as widely available as needed. Are we seeing in the near future deployment? Are we seeing in the near future deployment in particular sectors, or particular countries, maybe? What does that look like?
Devin Gladden 7:23
Well, I think what you're seeing is that there has been a mismatched approach to testing and deployment across the country. So if you look at dense, urban areas, there certainly has been more testing than in rural communities. And I think, you know that that's partially because of how the technology has developed. It's been a lot more challenging than engineers, I think, initially understood the challenge to be for these vehicles. Not only, you know, from a technology, hardware, software development standpoint, but also having to incorporate autonomous vehicles into the wider network of road users. So that's pedestrians, other drivers, bikers, motorcyclists. And so as a part of that sort of integration of AV's and to that wider network, engineers have encountered that they're going to be additional challenges, because there, there's just so much unpredictability in the transportation network because of all the different road users. And so, I think over the next few years, you're going to continue seeing pilot programs increase, and honestly, they'll likely continue to be focused on urban and dense areas. But you certainly are seeing different applications for like shuttles or delivery vehicles that could certainly have wider testing patterns. And that could certainly be in more rural areas. And I think we'll see that in the years to come. That also does not put a fine point on where we are with commercial deployment of these vehicles for long distance deliveries.
Mark Lerner 9:09
Absolutely.
Devin Gladden 9:09
And so I certainly think that over the coming years, you're going to see more pilots and more demonstrations, that certainly will put our highways under a new lens as we look at the use of these vehicles and their integration with other road users.
Mark Lerner 9:28
Gotcha. Now, you mentioned and I know from our previous discussions just as follows, that a lot of what you're looking into right now is public opinion on the use of automated vehicles. And what are people thinking about this, how do they feel about having these vehicles on the roads with them or being inside these vehicles. Could you maybe give me an overview of what questions you've been asking and what you've been finding?
Devin Gladden 9:51
Certainly. So for my particular research, I really wanted to hone in on public understanding of the pilot programs. So, to what extent folks are even aware that their state or city might be engaged in this kind of testing? How do they feel about the testing? And what's their perception of the testing? Because in some ways, the other road users, their perceptions of the vehicles as they're deployed will be critical in shaping the understanding of the vehicle's capabilities and limitations. And so it's critical that other road users have a baseline understanding of these vehicles so that then when they encounter them on the road, there's an understanding of how to engage with the vehicle rather than, you know, as a lot of the previous research today has found that a lot of road users are very afraid of these vehicles. And certainly the, someone's first time interacting with it could be on a highway, and if they're afraid of it, that could certainly contribute to an already dangerous situation. And so for the particular survey results that I undertook, you know, one thing that we found that was really interesting was that only about a third of U.S. drivers, were aware that some states are actually running pilot programs.
Mark Lerner 11:13
Oh, wow.
Devin Gladden 11:14
Yeah. So they're still, from a policymaker standpoint, there's still a major education gap. So, you know, as we see, over the coming years, as these pilot programs continue to grow, as we see more demonstrations, you know, in particular, when we look at, you know, major company announcements by Lyft, for example, you know, over the next two years they're, by 2023, planning to deploy robo-taxis throughout their Lyft network in various cities. This will be a critical point to make sure that – when you see more of these pilot programs being developed and deployed, there should be a heavy consumer education piece, and not just letting people know that, "Hey, there's a pilot program," but what's the safety record of the vehicles? What are the basic function? What's the functionality of the vehicles? Do they look different? How are they behaving? What, like, you know, there should be some critical details provided to the public so that if in the event that they do encounter these vehicles, it's not their first time and they don't get nervous or scared, or, you know, just an otherwise tense moment that can contribute to an already risky situation like driving.
Mark Lerner 12:30
Yeah. Are there guidelines out there already, that sort of outline what we should be educating the public on? Like, what are the important pieces? Because on one hand, I can imagine, you know, more education is better. But at the same time, there's a lot of technical details that would just be too much for people to get into.
Devin Gladden 12:53
Well, we – The thing is, you have to, industry has to work with safety regulators to strike that important balance, because right now, no, there's no federally mandated guidelines for how to educate the public on this. And actually, that's been a major criticism of the regulatory approach to date, which has been more hands off in the name of innovation. But as we understand, you know, new technologies, certainly in their infancy, you're dealing with a two fold challenge of not only acceptance from the public for use of the technology, but also the state of development. You know, I'm an 80's Kid, I remember having to blow into the Super Nintendo cartridges, because they didn't work all the time. And so, you know, I think most people would understand new technologies often fail. And so there, you know, there needs to be some understanding of, you know, how the vehicle will respond, and how people should interact with it when it does fail. And those, and those sorts of use cases, you know, there certainly – we see the stories in the media, and we see them on social media. But in some ways, there needs to be a more concentrated effort on the critical topics that regulators and industry really believes that all road users need to have in order to interact safely with these vehicles.
Mark Lerner 14:25
Yeah. And you mentioned one of the heaviest criticisms is that regulators are just too hands off. And the question that that immediately brings to mind for me is, who are the main influencers in the AV space right now? Is it private investment firms? Is it the engineers themselves that are building up these systems? Is it, as you've sort of been looking into your research, public opinion?
Devin Gladden 14:53
Well, you know, I think right now because there is such a race to prove that this technology can be deployed safely in a variety of driving settings, I think the conversation is still being driven very much by industry. And that's very much, not only the AV developers, but also the investors. And so I think we're at a really critical juncture because, you know, there, it seems like almost every day, there's some, you know, new, another multimillion dollar round of investment. And that will only increase the pressure to make sure that there's going to be a return on that investment. And in that haste, this is where regulators need to play a more critical oversight role to make sure that as these new technologies are being, you know, put on the roads, and that we really are pushing the limits of what even artificial intelligence capabilities are, you know, we need to make sure that those technologies are safe, and that people on the road are not put in greater danger because of that. And that's where regulators have to be able to step in and say, okay, we understand that this is new, the public is accepting some part of this risk. You know, and it's interesting, because I do think this is also a part of the larger liability insurance question.
Mark Lerner 16:23
Right, which is massive.
Devin Gladden 16:24
Yeah. Because I do think, you know – I'll be honest, I think states that are looking to make their AV industry more attractive for testing and deployment, I actually think they should consider placing sole liability on the AV testing company. So it would be waived for road users, in, during this interim period, as we – during this testing period. In particular, just to give people a sense of confidence in the technology. And help, it helps to build trust to because in some ways, if a company is unable to really give the motoring public a sense of confidence in their technology, they shouldn't be testing on public roads anyway.
Mark Lerner 17:09
That's a great point. Now, as we talk about the evolution of the technology, as well as the evolution of public perception on it, do you have a sense, given that you've been looking into this for a while now, of where we are on the, sort of, timeline of adoption? Are we moving at a breakneck pace towards, you know, a five year timeframe? Is this a more of a 50 year timeframe? Or what are maybe some of the milestones that you think we need to hit before we really start seeing these things taking up our streets?
Devin Gladden 17:44
So I think we are still very early in the deployment of these vehicles. As I noted before, I think, right now industry still being very much driven by the development of the technology, and the investments in the technology to actually make it work. So that puts us, for me, that puts us at the lower end of the timeline. So I do think over the next two to five years, you're going to continue seeing more pilot programs, more deployments, and more fleet applications, which will be I think, that will be the first critical milestone I think, is that once you see these vehicles used in a Lyft and Uber context, then that will increase deployment. And then really, it will be up to consumers. Because if you know you'll have a two fold challenge, so not only will people need to feel safe in the vehicle, they will need to make sure that the vehicle feels like another confident road user. And we know how dangerous driving can be. And in some ways, that will be the true test when these vehicles are on the road, whether or not we see their long term deployment or if they end up just being a short term innovation that cause more headaches than solve problems.
Mark Lerner 19:04
I guess only time will tell at this point. Devin, I've got so many more questions for you. But before we get to those, let's go ahead and take a quick break and we'll come back to get into some bigger topics.
Devin Gladden 19:17
Perfect. Thanks Mark.
Mark Lerner 19:42
If you're interested in connecting with Devin about his work, you can email him at devingladden@gmail.com. That's devingladden@gmail.com.
And we're back with a conversation with Devin Gladden all about the, well broadly, the future of transportation in a way. But more specifically, automated vehicles, electric vehicles and - Devin, it's, it's impossible to talk about transportation and the future of it without talking about climate change and how the new development of technology is, you know, particularly going to affect climate change and, and emissions, as you've already brought up. And I'd like to start maybe with just drawing a link and a connection between all of the automated vehicle technology, which we've been talking about, to the electric vehicle technology, which we haven't been mentioning so much, but has definitely seen a lot more deployment in the public, right? We see a lot more purely electric vehicles or hybrid vehicles on the road right now. Do you see these as two distinct but parallel paths of technology development? Or are there more linkages than what we might see as private citizens?
Devin Gladden 21:13
So Mark, I think, you know, just taking a step back, as we look at the use of autonomous vehicles, it might be helpful for people to think of them as, as smartphones on wheels. And so yeah, they're, they're – I mean, these are, you know, very smart devices that are going to have all sorts of apps that give you information, entertainment. All sorts of new things are going to be opened up to you while you're writing in an autonomous vehicle. Now, the, when you look at energy consumption, the research on this is still very early. But it looks like these devices are going to be - these vehicles, excuse me, are going to have many devices that are energy intensive. So all the sensors and radars, the LIDAR. I mean, all of those devices that are going to help the vehicle participate in driving and as a road user, are, they're, they're very energy intensive. And so I've been a part of discussions around whether or not you could end with sort of the first generation of AV's being both gas powered and electric powered, because of the not only intense electric needs, but also, the current state of battery technology may not actually make it feasible for one battery to power both the propulsion system and all the devices.
Mark Lerner 22:46
Oh wow.
Devin Gladden 22:47
So, so, we are in - it's just interesting, this is one of the engineering challenges that I find really fascinating is, you know, as we work to make these vehicles more safe, how can we do that in the most energy efficient way possible? And how does that necessarily conflict with some of the, I'll be honest, with the automaker motivations to make money, right? These are going to be ser- if you think about it, particularly and how vehicle services have been playing out recently, automakers want to be able to sell you things and cars, or you think about the advertising opportunities and marketing potential that, you know, Lyft can now offer sponsors because of the, just, they have a captive audience in this vehicle now. So I say all of that to say that, you know, in some ways, it's, the electric future for autonomous vehicles is not guaranteed. And I think there has to be a concerted regulatory effort that, as you know, with any mobility option, it's the carbon management of it will be important. And so I think that's where when you look at the development of automated vehicles versus electric vehicles, there, it will be different. And those are completely different markets. The technology may be connected. And there might be linkages, particularly, as you see, you know, automakers starting to acquire more and more AV developers and they're merging their engineering teams. And you could see more and more of that development happening. But I do think it's important to think of autonomous vehicles and electric vehicles as separate. And, yeah, and the electric vehicle market. You know, I'm happy to talk about that in more depth because that's a whole beast in and of itself, particularly related to climate change.
Mark Lerner 24:46
No kidding. Now, the electric vehicle market, it has had more regulation. It's been around for longer. As I said, we've had more of these things out on the road. Do you view the challenges in the electric vehicle market, and in the space, in a similar light, you know, insofar as public adoption, public perception, technology development, insufficient regulation - basically, are the challenges in a way parallel to what we're seeing with the auto- with what, with what you've already described with the automated vehicle space? Or are we in a totally different space with the challenges of the electrical vehicle market?
Devin Gladden 25:26
There are certainly similarities. But the regulatory market is much different. One, for one, electric vehicles, you know, we still have to get a real handle on how, because they use electricity for fuel, how we're pricing that into the paying for transportation. Just like gas powered vehicles use a gallon of gas, and there's a gas tax associated with it. In a regulatory market for electric vehicles, we've seen this approach differently in different states. So some states have attached a, just a mandatory electric vehicle fee. Other states are experimenting with a road usage charge that could be applied to any vehicle, regardless of its fuel source. And so you know, as we see more of those kinds of challenges, because you just, just, you have to think about the regulatory scheme differently for these vehicles, we'll see more of those issues emerge. Another critical area on the regulatory front for electric vehicles is also looking at the state of electric battery technology. And so, from a safety perspective, there still are police departments, fire departments that are just, that lack an understanding or the the knowledge or the the capability to respond to an EV fire, which is much different than a fire for a gas-powered vehicle.
Mark Lerner 27:02
Oh interesting.
Devin Gladden 27:03
And so that's another regulatory area where we need to make sure that, more than anything, we need to make sure that our state and local officials understand the differences between the two technologies, and that they can respond to each one appropriately and make sure everyone is safe as possible.
Mark Lerner 27:22
I see. Now, we've already seen, at least in the US here, you know, more and more of the government - uin particular, I'm thinking of the Biden administration, saying that they're going to really move the federal fleet towards electric vehicles. We've seen more interest in investment in the electric space. Do you feel like that's matching the pace that it needs to, to address the climate change concerns that the transportation industry puts on our planet?
Devin Gladden 27:54
You know, I think we're, we're struggling with adoption on this point. And, you know, the US is in a unique position. Because on one hand, you know, we do have strong political will, for the deployment of these vehicles. But on the other hand, you've still got a consumer base that, quite honestly is not seen as the forward leaning EV market. So US drivers, you know, are about third in the market. We're behind China, in Europe. And so, so that means that, quite honestly, our ability to influence the market will be limited by our ability to pay and put up money. Because in some ways, because we are sort of third - and quite honestly, we're still lumped in with North America so that also includes Canada and Mexico where EV opportunities for the market may be much more on the horizon than in the US. That really does put a greater need on, the need to put on, to build more electric vehicle charging stations, to work to make sure that there are federal and state incentives for the purchase of these vehicles. And, and that were working with automakers to secure the supply chain. Because, the other thing is even if you have the money to buy one doesn't mean you're going to be able to get one. Particularly given all the different, you know, supply chain challenges that the automotive industry is facing, not only related to batteries, but also computer chips. And you have to remember, you know, these vehicles, the newer vehicles are more advanced than ever. That means that they are more like smartphones than ever before. And the complexity of the technology, the advanced state of the technology only makes us more vulnerable because those minerals and resources are limited in supply. You know, and so that's yet another reason why the vehicles still remain expensive. And I'll be honest, I think that's, that's probably a whole industry concern that is here to remain for a while, until, until we see greater use of EVs in the secondary market. So when people start buying used cars. And even then, you know, you know, the the most advance state and federal policies, they might want to consider how can we get incentives for people who are buying cars, EV's used. You know, that helps with deployment as well. And so we have to, I think we're at this really critical moment where we have to think expansively about what the actual market is, given that, you know, fleet turnover can be a very, very long endeavor in this, this country. So if cars are lasting on the roads for 15-20 years, we have to plan for that. And I think that that is going to be a really big challenge for climate change, because that ultimately will mean that we may not be driving down emissions as fast as we would like or need to.
Mark Lerner 31:09
Right. So I know that one of the things that connects you and I amongst the other fellows is that we both can become pessimistic or cynical about some of the things that are coming, you know, in our future. But to try and be an optimist in this moment, when you look five years or 10 years into the future, What is the optimistic view of deployment of EVs? What are the ways in which we can actually get electric vehicles out into the hands of people? And do you start seeing, you know, more traditional vehicles, as you call them coming off of the road? Or what's, what's, you know, in that time horizon, what's the future that we could possibly envision?
Devin Gladden 31:52
Well, I think this is where the future of AVs and EVs will meet. Because I personally believe that if we can get safety policy and technology right, on AV's, and we can ensure that they're the most efficient power vehicles on the roads ever. I think if you see more of them being used, and they're electric, in the fleet context, as particularly for ride sharing, I think that could be revolutionary. Because I think there are a whole lot of people, even if they own a gas powered car, I think if they had a cheap electric option, like an AV, I do think that they might choose to switch some of those trips away from, from driving your own car. I also think for people in dense urban areas, hopping in an AV is a no brainer. And so I think if we get that right, we could see a really dramatic reduction in emissions over time. But I also think we have the, the challenge that the pendulum could swing the other way. And you could see emissions spike, because of usage, because of the state of technology. And so, you know, this is where, this is why I like to focus on the role of public opinion and perception.
Mark Lerner 33:23
Yeah.
Devin Gladden 33:24
Because at the end of the day, it all comes down to the public, on all of these questions. On, you know, whether you your next car is an electric vehicle, whether, you know, you're you decide to rent an electric vehicle to do your road trip, you know, all of that will be a conscious decision that consumers will have to make. And I think, you know, I think, you know, climate change certainly has given people an additional critical issue to think about as they make these decisions. But I'll be honest with you, I think that it will take more time for climate change to be the guiding principle on a whole range of fronts, because we're just, we're just not there yet.
Mark Lerner 34:09
Right. It seems like it's more of a guiding principle from the regulatory and policy standpoint than it is on the public perception and market shaping standpoint. Is that about right?
Devin Gladden 34:19
I would say that, yeah, about now. And honestly, the regulatory policy development is new. Hasn't always been that way. And it's not always guaranteed to be there, either.
Mark Lerner 34:29
Gotcha. And, are there any differences that are worth calling out about rural versus urban perceptions on electric vehicles? And maybe in particular with how they're going to affect climate change? Or, or, you know, in general, the usage of, of these vehicles or the desire to have these vehicles from those two different perspectives?
Devin Gladden 34:51
Absolutely. I think you have to first start with the different use cases in an urban versus rural context. I mean, it's not just electric vehicles. There are just different commuting and transportation patterns and habits. And so it's more about making sure that the technology fits those needs and patterns, as opposed to trying to shoehorn the technology into something that doesn't make sense. So I look at, for example, charging in rural communities. It will, you will need public and private infrastructure to make that happen. You know, but, but in the rural community, they're probably more uniquely advantaged to have personal home chargers, as opposed to in a densely urban area where you might have a bunch of apartment buildings. It's like, okay, well, where do you where do you put the chargers then? And how do you have enough charge going that you can actually, you know, charge all the vehicles that might be in the multiple households in one apartment building? So there, so those are unique policy and planning challenges that communities are really going to have to grapple with, and, and recognize that there's no one size fits all solution for this. Every community will have to have its own charging and infrastructure plan. And we should encourage that to really give people a greater sense of ownership of their use of this technology, in that it allows them to fit in their lives into to what's possible. I think, right now, for electric vehicles, I think a lot of people struggle, because charging looks differently, especially if they can't install a home charger, then that really does put a different weight on you than if you could just pull up at your local gas station. So, much different calculus. It's not impossible, but you know, Americans, and humans generally, are just creatures of habit. So if you, you know, say you're, you know, 45 or 50, you've been, you know, you maybe have bought two or three vehicles in your lifetime, you know, you're used to dealing with gas. And so now having to re, re-figure that out, you know, it's easier in some contexts than others.
Mark Lerner 37:15
Right. Right. That's fascinating. So, you know, when it comes to this idea of shifting public opinion, it seems like the infrastructure piece in particular is a massive one. But I want to, you know, give you a magic wand, let's say, and you can change, you can wave it and change one thing. What would you change to sway public opinion? What do you think is going to be, or would be, the most effective thing that would move the public towards a more electric vehicle friendly position?
Devin Gladden 37:50
Honestly, I think if you can show people that, compared to the other driving technologies they use, if EV's are proven to be the most efficient, the cheapest, the cleanest, and the safest, I think it's really hard for people to make the argument that they shouldn't drive one. Because I think the thing that really continues to hold people up is charging, and the cost. Because you know, as AAA has done work in the past on the, the cure for EV complacency is ownership. Once you actually own a vehicle, then you see it's not as scary or foreign or just, it's not - it's much easier to grasp and handle once you're doing it.
Mark Lerner 38:41
Gotcha. Well, I hope that we can find a magic wand and get it into your hands sometime soon. Devin, I want to give you an opportunity. Are there any final thoughts or anything that you want to leave the listeners with?
Devin Gladden 38:55
I do. You know, for anyone who's listening, and you're thinking about purchasing your next vehicle or leasing, you know, or buying a used car, anybody who's in the market in 2021, to buy a car, or to own or to lease. I really want them to think about how might they make that switch to an electric vehicle, because each of those consumer decisions are ultimately going to help our country drive down emissions. And so if people are not willing to make the switch, how else are we going to reduce emissions in this market?
Mark Lerner 39:35
Mm-hmm. Well, you have personally swayed my next purchase. That's for sure. Devin, it's been such a good conversation and it's so great to be able to chat with you today. Thanks for coming onto the show.
Devin Gladden 39:46
Thank you, Mark. This has been a great conversation.
Mark Lerner 39:49
Likewise.
Fellow Fellow is a podcast produced at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center, as part of the Technology and Public Purpose project. Music is by Zack Pfeiffer, artwork by Zi Wang. I'm your host, Mark Lerner. Join us next time as we talk to the other fellows about the problems they're tackling. Thanks for listening.